"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture" - Frank Zappa or Elvis Costello
Dancing About Architecture
December 11, 2018, 10:57:25 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Welcome to SMF For Free
 
  Home Help Search Gallery Staff List Login Register  

80's radio's influence on music

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  Print  
Author Topic: 80's radio's influence on music  (Read 4217 times)
Charlie
Administrator
Jr. Member
*****
Posts: 61


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2010, 02:01:46 pm »

Pegs, You're exactly right.  When it was used as another instrument it could be fine.  When it replaced a bnd the songs sounded so stiff and robotic.  I love how the synth was used on Van Halen's "Jump."  That's an example of the former.     
Report Spam   Logged
Saxman
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 81


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2010, 03:35:44 pm »

Pegs, You're exactly right.  When it was used as another instrument it could be fine.  When it replaced a bnd the songs sounded so stiff and robotic.  I love how the synth was used on Van Halen's "Jump."  That's an example of the former.     

That's a great example of the musical use of a synthesizer!  Too often as the 80s wore on, they were used as replacements for horn sections (and sounded pretty cheezy in both live and studio settings) and bass guitars.  Lord have mercy, how I LOATHE synthesizer bass (and drums while we're at it, with a special hatred for "cannon shot" snare drums!).  If a tune has those elements, it's really gotta have something else to hold my interest, because I'm immediately turned off by that stuff.

Sade, an artist whose early work I really admire, used a lot of drum machines on the early recordings, but at least there was some tasty fretted and fretless electric bass, percussion, keys, guitar and expecially sax work to hold one's interest (note my screen name, LOL!).
Report Spam   Logged
Hourman
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 58


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2010, 03:50:44 pm »

A lot of producers starting using those as cheaper alternatives to hired guns/studio muscians... and there was a control aspect that they had with electronics that they didn't have with studio musicians.

The problem was it became the "sound" by the mid-80s because of overuse...

Then, as dance music became popular, remixes began to feature all of the tricks as a way to extend a 3 min song in 15 minutes (i.e. the remix of "Dancing In The Dark" by Bruce Springsteen):

Report Spam   Logged
Perplexio
Administrator
Full Member
*****
Posts: 177


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2010, 03:53:28 pm »

A lot of producers starting using those as cheaper alternatives to hired guns/studio muscians... and there was a control aspect that they had with electronics that they didn't have with studio musicians.

The problem was it became the "sound" by the mid-80s because of overuse...

Then, as dance music became popular, remixes began to feature all of the tricks as a way to extend a 3 min song in 15 minutes (i.e. the remix of "Dancing In The Dark" by Bruce Springsteen):



Speaking of 80s dance remixes there's also an 8+ minute dance remix of Level 42's Something About You and the dance remix of Chicago's Along Comes a Woman stretched the song from about 4 minutes to almost 6 minutes.
Report Spam   Logged
Saxman
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 81


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2010, 04:22:32 pm »

I remember those dance mixes!  How funny to think about them now!  Santana had a very minor dance hit in 1985 with a tune called "Say It Again," from their "Beyond Appearances" album.  Anyway, the dance mix extended the song from about 3 minutes to perhaps 7 IIRC, featuring a long percussion break which sounded like something from the Woodstock era Santana (a GOOD thing).  The funny thing was, the break was grafted on by a bunch of studio musicians.  I always thought that was odd, not unlike Chicago bringing in Maynard Ferguson to play a trumpet solo on "Street Player."  Was Lee Loughnane doing his laundry or scoring some blow while they were recording?   Cheesy
Report Spam   Logged
Hourman
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 58


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2010, 05:30:12 pm »

I've got a stack of those 12" singles... including the Along Comes A Woman one. Nothing really special about it other than it's just a longer version of the 45" single.

They didn't even include the verse they deleted from the album version.
Report Spam   Logged
Poem58
Administrator
Jr. Member
*****
Posts: 64



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2010, 10:56:28 pm »

not unlike Chicago bringing in Maynard Ferguson to play a trumpet solo on "Street Player."  Was Lee Loughnane doing his laundry or scoring some blow while they were recording?   Cheesy

Having been a trumpet player and owning a few of Maynard's albums all I can say is that even if Lee was there, sober and so at the top of his game that he could play 200% better, he still could not have played that part. Maynard's strong suit was his abnormally high playing. Lee could never have pulled it off. Pardon the pun here but not to toot my own horn, I managed to play notes that high (C was our low note next octave up was tuning note C then what we called "High C" which the average players never could reach, I managed a "High E") once and only once. To which the senior sitting next to me stopped playing in mid song and high fived me cause no one had ever done that to anyone's knowledge in my high school. Sadly a month or so later was "the accident" of which destroyed my ability to ever do that again or continue to improve.

Maynard could probably play that note in his sleep. I know the guy he had in the band with him the one time I got to see him might actually have blown Maynard away, he was hitting notes so high I stopped watching Maynard and kept my eyes on him, and it didn't even look like he was trying hard!
Report Spam   Logged
Saxman
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 81


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2010, 11:08:29 pm »

not unlike Chicago bringing in Maynard Ferguson to play a trumpet solo on "Street Player."  Was Lee Loughnane doing his laundry or scoring some blow while they were recording?   Cheesy

Having been a trumpet player and owning a few of Maynard's albums all I can say is that even if Lee was there, sober and so at the top of his game that he could play 200% better, he still could not have played that part. Maynard's strong suit was his abnormally high playing. Lee could never have pulled it off. Pardon the pun here but not to toot my own horn, I managed to play notes that high (C was our low note next octave up was tuning note C then what we called "High C" which the average players never could reach, I managed a "High E") once and only once. To which the senior sitting next to me stopped playing in mid song and high fived me cause no one had ever done that to anyone's knowledge in my high school. Sadly a month or so later was "the accident" of which destroyed my ability to ever do that again or continue to improve.

Maynard could probably play that note in his sleep. I know the guy he had in the band with him the one time I got to see him might actually have blown Maynard away, he was hitting notes so high I stopped watching Maynard and kept my eyes on him, and it didn't even look like he was trying hard!

I didn't make myself clear: I am of the now - outdated opinion that you use the people in your band.  I know Lee has no upper range.  I'm just saying he couldn't have played a little, non-screaming Herb Alpert-like solo on the tune?  Look at Rise: that was big at the time and Alpert plays in Lee's range.  R U kidding me?  Lee Thornburg, Lee's current sub and an ex-TOP member, would blow Lee out of the water, just as Chicago's trombone sub Nick Lane is 1000x better on trombone then Jimmy Pankow ever was in his prime.  Walt on sax and flute....don't even go there....as a woodwind player my only comment is "luckiest horn player in pop music history."  Kenny G would bury him and that's not saying a ton.
Report Spam   Logged
Poem58
Administrator
Jr. Member
*****
Posts: 64



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2010, 07:08:10 pm »

I understand what you are saying, but hey it was a guest spot, like the Pointer Sisters backing Skinny Boy and Chaka Khan/Rufus on Take Me Back To Chicago.
I see nothing wrong with that. It wouldn't even had been an issue except the band in question had a trumpet player.

While I agree they could have made the part to where Lee could have played it, it ultimately makes more sense and probably was the better choice to have Maynard guest on it. Maybe I am biased cause I discovered Maynard and Chicago independently of each other, and liking both was pleased to see they had a connection.
Report Spam   Logged
Pegs
Newbie
*
Posts: 12



View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2010, 08:27:22 pm »

Being thoroughly unconversant in the mechanics, WHY couldn't Lee hit certain notes, no matter what? Besides having curly lips (I've heard it described) & hitting the valves correctly, what does one do to hit certain notes on a trumpet?

Anyone willing to take the time to inform me? Thank you in advance.   Kiss
Report Spam   Logged

Life is too serious to be taken seriously.
Poem58
Administrator
Jr. Member
*****
Posts: 64



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2010, 08:46:05 am »

Being thoroughly unconversant in the mechanics, WHY couldn't Lee hit certain notes, no matter what? Besides having curly lips (I've heard it described) & hitting the valves correctly, what does one do to hit certain notes on a trumpet?

Anyone willing to take the time to inform me? Thank you in advance.   Kiss

I would be most happy to explain. On a trumpet you have the three valves but your 8 notes are CDEFGA&B followed again by the next highest C.
Looking from mouth piece to horn bell ---> your valves are as follows (0 not pressed, x pressed)

C - 000   D - X0X   E - XX0   F - X00   G- 000   A- XX0   B - 0X0

While you may think (OK I don't need the stupid valves explained  LOL) the point is if you look at C's and G's you'll see they have absolutely no valve usage at all. (Which is how you can have a bugler play taps etc. no valves needed.)

These notes are made purely by your ability to tighten your lips. As you go up the range you have to keep making your lips tighter to make each successive G and C. You can also use alternate mouth pieces, which have a bowl like depression for you to play into. The higher the mouth piece number the shallower the bowl. Which can increase your range. The problem with this method is you lose tone quality.

The standard mouth piece that came with my trumpets were 7C. That had what I guess is considered to be a beginner or standard or something sized bowl in the mouth piece. I wanted to play higher, I was always told I had excellent tone so I thought maybe I could get away with it. So I got a 13a4a. That is what I hit was is considered a ridiculously high note. Why was it ridiculous?

Well, it's been said many times by many people other than myself that Lee is just an average player along for the ride. So let's say he's an extremely lucky me.
His range is likely limited to about CDEFGABCDEFGABC (3 note range as you can see that C appears 3 times). The last C is hard to hit from a lip tightness point of view. After all these years I am sure he's found the mouth piece that makes this relatively comfortable for his lips. But I had a hard time hitting this with a 7C. I could do it, it was just sometimes inconsistent. Use of another mouth piece like the 13a4a could let someone like Lee or myself got a couple of notes higher.

Now someone like Maynard, or other exceptional players (or as I was inching towards before my accident that pretty much destroyed my playing of the trumpet)
They seem to have impeccable control and ability and can high notes much higher with a much higher chance of not hitting it properly.

Instead of the above mentioned 3 note range, Maynard (as well as the few other exceptional players) had a 4 note range CDEFGABCDEFGABCDEFGABC. Keep in mind the highest note I ever hit and only once was 6 notes below this guys normal range, that's not right. It wasn't A high "E" that was the high note I hit it was a "G" which is only 4 notes back, and why I only hit it once. E would have been the highest extension of my normal range and not often. Sorry this error explains why I wondered why "E" would have been a big deal. I remember " High E" was my normal max, " High G" was never hit by any trumpeter within my 4 years in high school which must make it unusual as there were some much better overall players than me that went through there. I didn't try very hard.

Sorry "High" before the note is this part of the range cdefgabcdefgab CDEFGAB-C the last C being a "Double High C"

Anyway, Maynard could play in this range much more consistently and with much more skill. A double High C is just not a note the average trumpet player can play, even after 40 years it's likely Lee has never played that note even once. No reason to for him anyway. For Chicago songs his range is fine, but for the high range antics Street Player, Maynard was a natural choice.

Hope that explains it properly, if not I'll try to explain anything you didn't get, better... Grin

P.S. I have never heard of a curved lip problem, but just like anything I'm sure it comes down to some people can and some people can't. I can't seem to play a piano. I understand it I just can't do it.

Also, I'm about to explain my "accident" that destroyed my ability to play trumpet. Do Not read further if painful things make you squeamish.

We had the largest marching band in the city. But our band director had this idea, to form on the sidelines very tightly standing together. It was brilliant, it made us look so tiny from the other side of the field. It was amazing, looked like about 40 kids over there, then we spread out and there was 170 of us, all over. Neat effect. However it had us so close together that trumpet players were uncomfortably close, so close our horn bells nearly touched the head of the person in front of us (also made our head hurt when we had to play and someone was literally playing into your head). One day during practice, early one school morning, we were working the routine and a bee flew in front of the guy in front of me, he flailed and swatted at the bee instantly striking the bell of my trumpet, WE WERE PLAYING so it busted back into my mouth, bent both top and bottom teeth back and busted my lips top and bottom as well. I reached in quickly and pushed my teeth back in place and kept marching, stunned, until I realized the blood was all down the front of me and all over my hands etc. I walked off the field to find both my upper and lower lips were split open longways. Needless to say, it took months to get past my tuning note (cdefgab-C )and I never quite returned to normal. I was able to hit high "C" again a couple of times, but in general if I played more than say 10 minutes my lips began to burn, even a year afterward. Turns out my lips swelled, and it never went down making it permanently harder for me to play. So while it looked like I was getting the ability to play really well, I wasn't ever able to play much at all after that. too this day the scar is kinda visible where I got blasted. I couldn't even play along to my CHI albums.... Cry
So I eventually sold my trumpet. I miss playing it.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 09:22:35 am by Poem58 » Report Spam   Logged
Saxman
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 81


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2010, 06:44:17 am »

Poem,

I'm a woodwind player (saxes, flute, clarinet), so pardon my ignorance when asking this question in earnest, but I mean it with the best of intentions: could you possibly play the flugelhorn, which a lot of trumpeters with busted lips have taken up?  Some players such as Freddie Hubbard (who had a busted lip and developed cancer of the lip and licked it) were able to continue their careers playing flugelhorn exclusively.  Just a thought.

That's a real shame about the playing.  I'd go crazy if I couldn't play my horns.  I've picked up and dropped guitar and bass since the 1970s and have again picked them up, but the horns are sacred.

Saxman
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 11:22:07 am by Saxman » Report Spam   Logged
KATH
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 85


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2010, 02:16:44 pm »

Being thoroughly unconversant in the mechanics, WHY couldn't Lee hit certain notes, no matter what? Besides having curly lips (I've heard it described) & hitting the valves correctly, what does one do to hit certain notes on a trumpet?

Anyone willing to take the time to inform me? Thank you in advance.   Kiss

I would be most happy to explain. On a trumpet you have the three valves but your 8 notes are CDEFGA&B followed again by the next highest C.
Looking from mouth piece to horn bell ---> your valves are as follows (0 not pressed, x pressed)

C - 000   D - X0X   E - XX0   F - X00   G- 000   A- XX0   B - 0X0

While you may think (OK I don't need the stupid valves explained  LOL) the point is if you look at C's and G's you'll see they have absolutely no valve usage at all. (Which is how you can have a bugler play taps etc. no valves needed.)

These notes are made purely by your ability to tighten your lips. As you go up the range you have to keep making your lips tighter to make each successive G and C. You can also use alternate mouth pieces, which have a bowl like depression for you to play into. The higher the mouth piece number the shallower the bowl. Which can increase your range. The problem with this method is you lose tone quality.

The standard mouth piece that came with my trumpets were 7C. That had what I guess is considered to be a beginner or standard or something sized bowl in the mouth piece. I wanted to play higher, I was always told I had excellent tone so I thought maybe I could get away with it. So I got a 13a4a. That is what I hit was is considered a ridiculously high note. Why was it ridiculous?

Well, it's been said many times by many people other than myself that Lee is just an average player along for the ride. So let's say he's an extremely lucky me.
His range is likely limited to about CDEFGABCDEFGABC (3 note range as you can see that C appears 3 times). The last C is hard to hit from a lip tightness point of view. After all these years I am sure he's found the mouth piece that makes this relatively comfortable for his lips. But I had a hard time hitting this with a 7C. I could do it, it was just sometimes inconsistent. Use of another mouth piece like the 13a4a could let someone like Lee or myself got a couple of notes higher.

Now someone like Maynard, or other exceptional players (or as I was inching towards before my accident that pretty much destroyed my playing of the trumpet)
They seem to have impeccable control and ability and can high notes much higher with a much higher chance of not hitting it properly.

Instead of the above mentioned 3 note range, Maynard (as well as the few other exceptional players) had a 4 note range CDEFGABCDEFGABCDEFGABC. Keep in mind the highest note I ever hit and only once was 6 notes below this guys normal range, that's not right. It wasn't A high "E" that was the high note I hit it was a "G" which is only 4 notes back, and why I only hit it once. E would have been the highest extension of my normal range and not often. Sorry this error explains why I wondered why "E" would have been a big deal. I remember " High E" was my normal max, " High G" was never hit by any trumpeter within my 4 years in high school which must make it unusual as there were some much better overall players than me that went through there. I didn't try very hard.

Sorry "High" before the note is this part of the range cdefgabcdefgab CDEFGAB-C the last C being a "Double High C"

Anyway, Maynard could play in this range much more consistently and with much more skill. A double High C is just not a note the average trumpet player can play, even after 40 years it's likely Lee has never played that note even once. No reason to for him anyway. For Chicago songs his range is fine, but for the high range antics Street Player, Maynard was a natural choice.

Hope that explains it properly, if not I'll try to explain anything you didn't get, better... Grin

P.S. I have never heard of a curved lip problem, but just like anything I'm sure it comes down to some people can and some people can't. I can't seem to play a piano. I understand it I just can't do it.

Also, I'm about to explain my "accident" that destroyed my ability to play trumpet. Do Not read further if painful things make you squeamish.

We had the largest marching band in the city. But our band director had this idea, to form on the sidelines very tightly standing together. It was brilliant, it made us look so tiny from the other side of the field. It was amazing, looked like about 40 kids over there, then we spread out and there was 170 of us, all over. Neat effect. However it had us so close together that trumpet players were uncomfortably close, so close our horn bells nearly touched the head of the person in front of us (also made our head hurt when we had to play and someone was literally playing into your head). One day during practice, early one school morning, we were working the routine and a bee flew in front of the guy in front of me, he flailed and swatted at the bee instantly striking the bell of my trumpet, WE WERE PLAYING so it busted back into my mouth, bent both top and bottom teeth back and busted my lips top and bottom as well. I reached in quickly and pushed my teeth back in place and kept marching, stunned, until I realized the blood was all down the front of me and all over my hands etc. I walked off the field to find both my upper and lower lips were split open longways. Needless to say, it took months to get past my tuning note (cdefgab-C )and I never quite returned to normal. I was able to hit high "C" again a couple of times, but in general if I played more than say 10 minutes my lips began to burn, even a year afterward. Turns out my lips swelled, and it never went down making it permanently harder for me to play. So while it looked like I was getting the ability to play really well, I wasn't ever able to play much at all after that. too this day the scar is kinda visible where I got blasted. I couldn't even play along to my CHI albums.... Cry
So I eventually sold my trumpet. I miss playing it.

...Wow.  And OWW!!  I'm so sorry...I never knew. Cry  WOW!!  That makes me sad...that was YOUR THING.  And it got snatched away by a bee, a scared fellow brass player, and a band director who wanted to SHOCK AND AWE...isn't it weird when ya think about it like that?  I'm sorry that you had to bring it up...but that chain of events changed your life..."sniff!" No, really...I'm not tryin' to be Debbie Downer, but I know you've probably thought about that more than once, ya know?  At least it was gonna be a physical injury that stopped you...And, NOW--since I said that--I'm gonna (somewhat) be funny now:

Be very glad I wasn't the individual standing in front of you--you would've had to have the damn thing surgically removed.  heh.

I'd really miss being able to sing...even though I don't sing as much as I used to, and granted it's not like it was, when I sang all the time; and I'd lose it occasionally, it CAME BACK.  Ya know?  I can still retrain it, to a degree...The range and pitch can be tweaked...but it could be gone (or not come back the same) at any given moment.  I mean, Look at JULIE ANDREWS... Cry   

And, since I've never "played" anything but the radio, and a little percussion, if coerced, I never really learned HOW and WHY instruments WORKED. Wink  So, like my post on DB's board asking about guitars (and several expert explainations!  Hey, I sing.  I don't know **** about all the other stuff, sad to say...), I truly appreciate the explaination of the mechanics.  I wondered how it all worked--and 7 notes with three buttons never made sense to me...thanks.   Kiss
Report Spam   Logged
Poem58
Administrator
Jr. Member
*****
Posts: 64



View Profile
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2010, 08:08:17 pm »

To address you both I must say yeah, actually Saxman, I did end up playing my senior year at Fulgelhorn although I had to sit out the first half of marching band. the only problem was I owned a trumpet and only "borrowed" the flugelhorn form the school. So after my senior year, I had no need to pay hundreds of dollars for one and had a trumpet I basically could not play. Also, even though the Flugelhorn helped it was only enough to get me through my senior year. The damage was to both my upper and lower lips so for whatever reason the pain was too much and the ability was just flat out gone. I had made great strides from my freshman year when I was told at practice before the year started by a senior "No freshman plays first trumpet" and I had to prove I was worthy, and I eventually hit that high G which made my senior section leader quit in the middle of the song to high five me as no one had ever done that. After that accident, even Flugel was a bit too much. To this day I cannot whistle more than a minute or two without cramps, I kid you not, the damage was that severe.

Kath, while I don't blame the band director (as I said it was amazing to see on video we looked like the rest of our city, teeny tiny band then we expanded out to be HUGE in comparison) But the senior in front of me could have ignored the bee and let it go by, or realized my trumpet bell was only inches behind his head, but being top dog trumpet as he was the senior, he was in front and did not see just how close our horns were from the next persons head. So it probably never occurred to him he would slam into me like that, and with his ego, I doubt he cared. I don't recall him being so concerned as to what he did. But at that moment, I doubt I could remember anything but the blood and pain. So, he may have been the most sorrowful person on earth and I won't remember. He's coincidentally the same one who high fived me for the highest known note ever played at my high school to that point. How ironic, no?

yeah it always left me with a what if feeling. My head band director wanted me in his concert and but I elected to join the flag girls and other band rejects for the embarrassing assistant band directors concert band as I didn't want people to know I couldn't play anymore. The sad thing is that the secondary band director canceled a concert as in his opinion I was the ONLY one capable of playing the material and went so far as to make the band play without me playing. they were so bad he basically singled me out and told them if I wasn't playing they sounded like crap. So how bad was that band if the guy who lost his chops WAS the one guy who played it right!!??!?

which of course had the WHOLE band staring at me like I did something wrong. Sometimes I wonder how I got out of High School alive!

So yeah it was bittersweet, I had done so much to establish myself as the best player I could be, to have it ripped away and have to hide the fact that any playing was painful and far less technically proficient. But I made it. And always wonder just what I could have done if not for having that stupid bee fly by at that moment. I always had dreams of being Lee's fill in....
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 08:20:45 pm by Poem58 » Report Spam   Logged
Saxman
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 81


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2010, 08:20:37 pm »

There are SO many band directors and school music teachers who are idiots and egomaniacs.  Half of those I know can't play any instrument worth a plugged nickel.  I know one who has a masters in music, plays EVERY instrument you can think of and none of them well or even mediocre.

I told my kids ex-music teacher the choral concert was great and his reaction was, "Yeah, yeah, yeah!  Go home!"  Moron.

What a rotten turn of luck with the trumpet.  What about the piano, drums, Latin percussion, vibes, bass or guitar?  You don't have to use the lips.  It's never too late to learn a new instrument.
Report Spam   Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum | Buy traffic for your forum/website

Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy